Ingrid: Hello and welcome to a special edition of TDAM Talks. This is an honor of International Women's Day, and in celebration of International Women's Month, this year's theme is Accelerate Action. We challenge ourselves to push forward, move the dial on stereotypes, to fight bias, to fight discrimination. At TD Asset Management. We believe in fostering an environment where diverse voices are heard and diverse talents are developed.
Ingrid: I am honoured to be joined by two remarkable leaders, colleagues and friends. First, Dawn Shaw, VP, Wealth Enablement and Transformation, and Angie Elkhodiry, Managing Director and Head of Business innovation here at TD Asset Management. Both of these remarkable women have built careers here at TD. They're going to share their stories with you today. And hopefully we can talk about how we can all work to accelerate action, break down bias and move forward.
Ingrid: So ladies welcome.
Angie: Thank you. Thank you.
Ingrid: Let's start with the journey story. The origin story. So maybe I'll start with you. Dawn Can you talk a little bit about how you got to here.
Dawn: Oh my gosh. Sure. How long do we have?
Ingrid: We're not going back to diapers, but let's talk about the career journey.
Dawn: so, I've been with TD for close to 15 years now, and to be honest, I never would have thought that I would have stayed or been in banking and investments for that long. that's not really where I thought my trajectory was. and I'm so, so excited that I've recently moved into the asset management, firm under TD, to lead our end to end client experiences as a product owner with a team of wonderfully talented, product owners really striving to drive change across the organization.
Dawn: But also a little bit about me. I believe we all have this onion we need to feel. so outside of business and what I do from a career perspective, I am a first generation Canadian. Both my parents emigrated in the late 60s from Scotland. I grew up in Brampton, Ontario, which is just outside of Toronto and currently live in Burlington with my husband, Kevin, and our two very energetic huskies, Boston and Bruin.
Ingrid: ... We're going to have a whole hockey bias here.
Dawn: I'm a Leaf’s fan ... negotiation with my husband.
Ingrid: There we go. He lost the draw on that one. And you've a little bit about your origin story.
Angie: I started, my career in 2000 here at TD. it was TD Securities. started on the trading floor, looking at, structured equity. and about maybe five years after that. I wanted to do something a little bit different. and so I did, credit derivatives which was the market “du jour” in 2002. I was on the fence of whether to go back and do, more schooling or to stay, and just, finish my career or start my career in finance.
Angie: At the time, I remember my professor was very keen on finding the relationship between credit markets and equity markets. And so I talked to, the manager who headed the derivatives. book at the time. And I said, what do I need to get a job on your desk? And he said, you need to get a PhD.
Angie: And so I went back and I said, okay, how do I do both worlds at the same time? And so I did ... TD actually sponsored my PhD. it was to find a proprietary trading desk for credit solutions and equity. it was a long journey. we finally were able to, find that relationship and start our prop desk, and I finished in 2006.
Angie: Then in 2008, the credit derivative market had crashed. And so we did not have a credit derivatives business anymore. I left to go to Scotia. I did a little bit of consulting, and then I realized that TD really was my home. So I wanted to come back, do something a little bit different. I came back in 2012 on the TD Asset Management side.
Angie: And then in 2017, machine learning, big data started to become like the new topic “du jour” the new credit derivatives. and so same prof came and said, wouldn't it be great if we could do your PhD but ten times more? TD. and so we thought that that was a really good idea. we went, we did our rounds, we did our pitches.
Angie: And in 2017 we launched the Fin Hub. And it's a co venture program between the engineering firm and the School of Rotman. And right now we've got great, talent. And you know, it was a win-win. TD would kind of sponsor some use cases for these PhD thesis is or masters thesis was a great way for us to, attract talent and be part of something, great.
Angie: And that's really what I've been doing since then.
Ingrid: The thing that's striking me in both of these conversations is I didn't expect to be here, or I didn't plan the journey. So can you each talk a little bit about the mentor or somebody that was guiding, pushing, helping, navigating for you and what kind of difference did that make? Dawn ...
Dawn: I knew you were going to ask me ...
Ingrid: And get the next one first.
Dawn: Listen, I think all along the way I've had various mentors and and support and sponsors. I think a big piece of it and why I started by saying I didn't envision that I'd be in financial or investments. I, I it was foreign to me. I didn't grow up in a household where we talked a lot about investments or financials.
Dawn: It wasn't part of our DNA as a family. and so it was scary. And so coming in to they actually came in through marketing. and that was a big piece of who I was. I had started in sales and marketing and other organizations. And so I understood the industry of marketing. and then banking made sense when you think of, you know, checking credit cards personal, those things.
Dawn: And then I took a look and said, I've always wanted to make sure that I'm challenging myself and learning. And so as I've been able to and TD does a phenomenal job from a career development perspective where I was able to just challenge myself even more. And so if I think of the mentors space all along the way, I've had that encouragement from different leaders and folks.
Dawn: And, in 2020, I moved into wealth and had a phenomenal leader. I'm going to say I felt like took a chance on me because I didn't have a wealth management background. but I had been with the organization for quite some time, but I understood change, change delivery, technology capabilities, where we were moving and where we were heading from a digital transformation perspective.
Dawn: And so I knew how the organization worked and how to navigate it, but needed to learn the businesses, that encompass wealth management here, a TD. and so that was a big piece. And I would say, you know, along the way, people have taken chances on me. But I also, you know, it's okay to be scared and said, okay, if I feel afraid about this, it's probably the right move for me.
Dawn: And that's a big, important piece to remember as we're moving in, navigating our careers.
Ingrid: I find it's you can be a lot braver in those moments when you have people backing you up. I remember when I was first hired to TD, the person who hired me said, and I've said this before on podcasts, I'll judge the success in hiring you by how much I have to change to accommodate you. But that is such a vote of confidence.
Ingrid: And in your case, and you when when you went to your boss and he securities and said, this is what I want to do, and he said, go get a PhD, was part of that. Like did you? Was he almost serious or did he not think or did he fully expect you to rise to that? Yeah, that's a good question.
Angie: I'm not sure. I mean, I called his bluff. I got a PhD, but, very similar to what Dawn was saying; so, I've had great mentors. Some were women, some were men. the first woman Dean, of engineering at U of T, a Dean of mine, she's phenomenal. And her motto was, you know, be comfortable with being uncomfortable, right?
Angie: Which means just go after stuff that you just don't know, because that's the only way, to grow. And so, you know, anything new were to come up and I raise my hand because that's being uncomfortable, and I, you know, it's it's it's very difficult to do sometimes. And it takes the, you know, a lot of work, but, you know, it's I find that women in general are okay to, to fail like, they're, there's not that fear of failure.
Angie: And so if you fail, you try something different. And if you fail, you try something different. And eventually you get there.
Ingrid: That's fascinating. And, why do you think that is? Is it maybe because people underestimate women or or we just are juggling so many balls in our lives that we have to be able to put one down, figure out the glass on the rubber.
Angie: Yeah. So, I mean, multitasking is difficult for everyone, right? But I feel, you know, for, for me, so I've got two monkeys at home and it's just it never stops. Right. And so you've got to think all the time about different things. Can't really disappoint that fear of disappointment. And so, you're okay if the ball drops somewhere, it just means that you're able to hold on to another one.
Ingrid: Yeah. Figure out the rubber in the glass.
Dawn: I'm gonna throw it. As we were getting set up for this podcast and his phone is behind us, and she said in case the school calls. And that's just an example, right, is to say, hey, we're doing this. It's very important. But I may have to step away and I may have to jump in. So that's just a real live example of what happens in the day to day.
Ingrid: In the time that you've been in, in the bank or in your careers, have you seen a meaningful shift? I often talk about the hill being really steep, and maybe it's leveling off a little bit now, but what are some of the changes that you've seen in your time? And I'll start with you this time, Angie, in your career.
Angie: Sure.
Angie: So when I started on the trading floor, there was maybe 10% were women. You take a step on the trading floor, whether it's at TD securities or TDAM, there's a great representation of women. even in the fin hub, when we started at 2017, it was, 0% women, and now we're up to 50% women. Amazing. Yeah. So, it takes time, but I think we're going in the right direction.
Ingrid: What about you? What have you seen?
Dawn: Yeah, I think similarly, in lots of cases over the years where I may have been the only female leader at the table, just in the environment and space that I work in and, you know, with technology platforms, there is a shift, I would say most of the time now, I'm not the only female at the table.
Dawn: it is probably closer to 50%. I know when we were first talking about this, Ingrid, I made a comment like, why are we still having this conversation? And what I really meant about that is this whole, you know, accelerate action is no longer just talking about it. I think as an organization, we're also putting action and meaning when we say something, we're doing it.
Dawn: And really thinking about the fact that we need to have representation of our clients or communities or colleagues, like we don't just say that it's meaningful and it's how we drive our business forward. And so it's just a staple. I think it's in the DNA of the organization that we live and breathe. And I've seen a significant change over the years.
Ingrid: And I think leaders, as we talked a little bit about not just waiting for the slow train of attrition, but bringing more chairs into the room and filling them with women actually getting that change. What do the best leaders do in supporting women in the development of their careers? And sort of back to you don't like, think about a moment where somebody did something that really moved the needle for you, and how do you play that forward to others?
Dawn: I think there's a few cases, and this is the moment where I'm gonna say we should be raw and share some experiences. I'm gonna share a little bit of a not so good experience, which has made me a stronger leader and how I think about things. you know, in the organization and as a people leader. And so as I, you know, we all had goals, like we have goals.
Dawn: And one of my goals was to be, make vice president before I was 40. I was fortunate that I was able to do that with a lot of hard work and taking chances. But there was a comment when I was promoted into VP, and it was, oh, that's you don't have kids. That's how why you were promoted so quickly or that's how you were able to achieve that.
Dawn: And at that time it was really raw and I only started to talk about this. I don't have kids. My husband and I, we weren't able to have kids. And so, when that person said it, they weren't saying it in a way. They didn't realize what it actually did to me inside. But, at the time that I was growing my career, I was also going through multiple losses of miscarriages and fertility treatments and continuing to to grow and strive and work hard.
Dawn: But what I did wrong, and this would be the voice to make the younger self of me, is I actually thought that by compartmentalizing my life and work, I didn't share to my leaders. and I had very supportive leaders at the time, but I didn't share what I was going through either, because I was worried that it was going to hold me back.
Dawn: I was worried that I wouldn't get that next promotion, or I'd be looked over, because at the same time as growing my career, I was trying to start to have a family. and they were competing to me inside. And that was very, very hard. And I share that now because I think it's important to recognize. And what I would say to anyone going through this is don't compartmentalize.
Dawn: I think early on when I said we all have this onion to peel is that's what makes us who we are, and we spend more time with each other in the office than we do our families. And so it becomes a family. And so when you think about how do you help from a career, what do you do to guide and lead?
Dawn: What have I done differently is I make sure that you know, where possible, where people want to share, that it's a safe environment to share, have an open conversation. But also it shouldn't hold anyone back. If someone, whoever wants to take time off for whatever reason, they should be the first to call if they would have been the first to call if that was the right role for them.
Dawn: And so it's upon us as leaders to really remember that and bring that into the environment and culture. That's not easy, because we're moving as quick as we can. And you have to think about, oh, wait, can, you know, six months in, someone else coming in if they're off, but just be aware of it. Is the moment, I think, in my career that's something that while personally what I've reflected is I compartmentalize that.
Dawn: That was on me because I wasn't feeling like I could share.
Ingrid: What About you? And like moments like that or things that really sort of.
Angie: So I remember, I was the when I started my career, I was, probably the youngest and the only female, on the desk. and initially, I felt I just didn't belong. Right. And it wasn't, an easy task, and I remember there was one trait I had one trade to do, and I stayed up, and I thought, you know, I'm gonna.
Angie: I'm gonna do this, right. It was. You had your book, and, I bought the wrong futures. And so I basically just kind of confound. And to that, you know, maybe I really don't belong. And I remember my manager was, you know, the biggest joke, on the floor, back then. And I remember my manager coming and, saying, so what are we going to do about it?
Angie: And, he said, we can sit here and cry about it, or we can fix it. And that choice, it's going to be up to you to decide. And we fixed it, and the next day it was a moot point. Nobody really thought about it. Nobody. And so I think it's that, you know, get up on the, you know, you can you can make it as big or a small as you choose for it to be.
Angie: You own that. And so, you know, everybody makes mistakes, but everyone can correct the mistake as well.
Ingrid: I remember being, early in my career in a trading room and extend come trading and all the liability traders, the Canada traders were men and, a shot was taken on a woman and it wasn't the right woman. Like just liability trading is a is a really intense. and this particular woman wasn't necessarily the right woman for that role.
Ingrid: And after, she was moved to another role, I said to my manager, who I thought was incredibly evolved and supportive, and I said, well, who do you think we should put in? How about so and so? And I put up another woman's name and he said, well, no, we tried a woman. It didn't work. They said, well, no, we tried so-and-so and it didn't work.
Ingrid: But I remember in that moment feeling like I thought we were further ahead than this, but these stereotypes were still there, where, if a woman failed, it wasn't about capability. It was somehow tied to our gender. And I think we've come so much further from there. But I do need to anchor myself sometimes. You know, when you are at the top of the hill and looking around and things look so great, we have to remember, where we came from and just how far we've come.
Ingrid: And I think that's where great leadership takes and is trying to create that empathetic environment so that people can bring their whole selves to work. Tell me about leaders that maybe would have taken you off the course or what? What I don't want to say bad leaders, because you learn something from every leader. But what a less than supportive leader might have slowed you down or change your try decelerated action.
Ingrid: That's what we're after, Angie...
Angie: so I think it was just this I would have been the first sponsored PhD at TD securities. and I remember one manager saying, well, you can't do both. It's either or. So you're going to have to figure it out. so you either can take time off and do your page or you can work here, but you definitely wouldn't be able to do both.
Angie: and unfortunately, that did get into my head. And for the longest time, I it was almost just me waiting for myself to fail. But, I think it's just taking it, breaking it up into little pieces and saying, okay, I'm able to do one month of this, okay, let's see the next month. And so just taking it really day by day, is probably the key, in my opinion, to every success.
Ingrid: And did you ever have a leader that made you double click on yourself?
Dawn: It's interesting you ask that question and I my first response is no, I'm what I mean by that is I we we do own our own careers and decisions. Have I had leaders that I prefer not to work with or form? Absolutely. But I wouldn't say that there was a like a moment that it was to decelerate, like in.
Ingrid: A decelerating.
Dawn: Salary.
Ingrid: Like that, like.
Dawn: My career.
Ingrid: I like that I can't even say that.
Dawn: No. And, I think this is like from a TD perspective, the opportunity to look for and to ask for special projects or do different things that are going to your take your PhD. like I think that's on us to also find those moments. I haven't had a leader that has made me feel like I'm stepping back from a career perspective or needing to to leave a role.
Dawn: If anything, I've had encouragement to continue to grow, continue to look for those challenges, to ask questions. and sometimes it's not the answer I wanted, but that doesn't mean it was purposely trying to. Yeah, a trajectory.
Ingrid: We often talk about being the only one in the room or the the power of more voices. And I'll come back to you on this one. Dawn, how does it feel different when you're not the only female voice in the room?
Dawn: It feels as though you have a bit more support, and I don't mean that you wouldn't have support if it was a room and it was all men and you were there, but I just think there's a there's that connectivity piece, and this is where it's important that we are all supporting each other. But even just, taking a moment and, and being able to be a bit emotional about something or when you want to jump in and it feels like you're cutting someone off, you're not doing it to be rude or you know, you're doing it because you have something to say or have a voice at the table.
Dawn: And I find sometimes if you have common people in the room with you, they help and encourage that, that moment. Yeah. and we do like I get in my head all the time and this is where I'm going to say that's on me. I, you know, I'm constantly saying, oh gosh, why am I thinking this way? I'm really lucky.
Dawn: I have a huge supporter in my husband at home who, you know, will say to me, you know, you're done at, Shaw. And, you know, remember that, like, you worked hard, you drive, you know, keep doing that. And that's important. But similarly, having support in the office and in the room or if you're in school, whatever it is, is just as important to have that sort of fan base for you.
Ingrid: Yeah. What about you? And do you ever feel that way, or does it feel better when there's more balance in the room?
Angie: I think to finding common ground when you're solving any problem is usually the the best right. And that common ground can be, life experience. It could be on friendships, it could be on anything. I just find when we have that common ground, we're able to find a solution faster. and so just having people maybe with similar experiences, whether it's at work or at home, I think just makes a stronger.
Ingrid: From your perspectives and what you've experienced. Do you lead women differently than you might lead men? there's something going on in your head when you're working with a member of your team.
Angie: I think my path might be different than a colleague who is male. And so by sharing that with maybe a younger generation, it kind of opens up their, their creativity or, or their knowledge on, well, you can approach this problem, this way or you can approach that problem that way. so I think that that is, you know, probably a good thing, whether it's, early in their career or later than their career or just kind of highlighting, maybe a different path, makes it a little bit easier.
Ingrid: Here's a piece in here. We're talking about leaders and individual leader style and the leaders that help to the leaders that maybe what else can organizations to do? Do more to a policy level or what have programs that you've seen have been really successful in helping women forward?
Dawn: But you I think I think there's a few I think that's an exceptional job or I feel he does an exceptional job in this. you know, we have a lot of joint programs, even, you know, return to work programs with Brotman and, you know, others that are are like leaving my mind right now. I can't think of, internally with women at TD, the support and allyship across the board.
Dawn: I think that all just is encouraging the conversation. It encourages it to make it mainstream. and that's an important piece. And then celebrating things. And I use the Rotman program. and I was fortunate to be a sponsor on that program and paired up with a mentor mentee. And it's an exceptional to have, you know, people take time off work, women take time off work, whether it's for family, whatever reasons.
Dawn: And, you know, chose to almost take that, like I say, moment of pause on their career but need want to come back now that's they're now ready to return and so just being able to encourage. And so it's a great program to be able to say like this. You don't have to think about starting over. This is the moment say well when did you where did you pause and where do you want to come back in.
Dawn: and that's what that program really encourages. And so I think any, any organization, whether it's TDI or other big firms, you know, look for those opportunities to sponsor and bring that into the organization.
Ingrid: And I think organizations like women at TD, the conversation is, yes, it's around, events or moments, but there's a lot of curiosity there in terms of what's our blind spot? What else might we be missing? What was somebody's experience? And then really challenging people to talk about their experiences. What were you like? If you've done the buy side, you've done the sell side piece as well.
Ingrid: What programs or things.
Angie: Yeah. So I…
Ingrid: Think we work well.
Angie: To what Dawn was saying ... the “Return to Bay Street”. That's a phenomenal one that we've had a lot of great, great people come through that, TD yes, I agree, does an exceptional job for thinking outside of the box, like the Fin Hub was something that we just created. And this is an excellent hub for women to come in to like a I type field.
Angie: Yeah. which is phenomenal.
Ingrid: And you are both in, you know, when we talked about this podcast and planning for this, as colleagues, you're the ones I wanted to reach out to because both of you are in roles that maybe aren't always traditionally seen as female lead roles, like “STEM” type roles. you talk a little bit about that. You feel like.
Ingrid: And do you sort of surprise people sometimes with, like, you surprised me all the time.
Angie: I hope that's not the case anymore, but, you know, I, I was at a conference in the an AI conference in New York. It's an amazing one. It's very technical. and it's, you know, people from JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley are talking about the most sophisticated applications, or work that they're doing in the AI space.
Angie: And half of those presenters were women, right. And it was amazing to see when I graduated, I was the only female engineer in my year. and my posts or my post, graduate degree. and now there's maybe close to 40%. So I think the pendulum is really swinging to the right direction.
Ingrid: I could do a whole podcast on women in AI. Is there something in this rapidly changing field, the way that women think or the decision making or something different that like that positions women really well, or they might think they would not be well suited.
Angie: So I think it's the same advice that I was given, you know, back in the early 2000 was you need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. And that's just AI is rapidly changing, right? Every day. You know, something news coming out. And if you don't have that mindset that you know, it's okay to leave this behind and start something new, even though you might know not know anything about it, that's okay.
Angie: And so perhaps lots of women were given the same advice. And so you're seeing a lot of strong women come up and evolve in the AI space.
Ingrid: I think that's fascinating because it's not like something where it's been male dominant. It's also new, right, that everybody's got a fair shot at it. I think about the work that you do, Dawn and the journey and how we're trying to change the way that we execute at that same thing. Right.
Dawn: Yeah, I, I yes. Similarly, I think it's also I always say, you know, we're enabling the experiences for our clients and colleagues and our clients and colleagues are made up of many different diversity and backgrounds and ethnicities and, and gender. And so it's so important to have that balance at the table and to be have that open and challenge each other in the conversation so that we can get it right, right, so that we can be improving that experience.
Dawn: And I if you think and I think about even some of the gen AI moments, you know, yes, it's scary, but the fact that gen I can do things and start to produce content and think about the where we can go with this, it also needs to speak to all audiences.
Ingrid: Yeah.
Dawn: And so with the creators and those who are not the experts on the background who are starting to evolve and bring that data in and get that content there, it wouldn't be right if it was only the same person getting it for everyone.
Ingrid: Yeah, we have to represent. That's I absolutely love that. I've done this podcast for a number of years now, and you're right. Like, why are we still having this conversation? There's this immense feeling of optimism that only gets, it only grows when I get to work with amazing women like you and see great women. But what's next?
Ingrid: Like, what excites you about the future? But more.
Dawn: I think, you know, accelerate action. Honestly, it's like to where we are versus maybe where we came from. So if you think of in any change, it's all around, you know, awareness first and then knowledge and then design all the things that you do from a change management perspective in the fact that we're now saying we want to accelerate the things and actions that we've been talking about over the last few years, it means we actually have traction in action and things that we're talking about.
Dawn: you know, 40% representation in engineering programs and 50% at the table and 50% of leaders. This few years ago, that wasn't the conversation. Yeah. So I just think as we continue the conversation is around, how are we making sure that there's representation across the board and we're having that right dialog to move the needle? That's where we are.
Dawn: And that's what's exciting.
Ingrid: I'm thinking, as you're saying that, and I talked in previous podcasts about sort of the stages that I've witnessed in my career, like we were allowed to be in the trading room, and we were reminded every day that we were allowed to be there. And then it felt like being a woman was a handicap. There was accommodations made for us, right?
Ingrid: Like, oh, we'll figure out a mat for you or we'll figure this out. And then there was this true sort of momentum around adapting. Okay. No, no, we're going to be more purposeful about it. Now on to another acceleration. Right. What about you? Like what excites you about what you're seeing today?
Angie: I think we've done a great job. I'm really excited about, you know, I don't think we're going to go back in any way, and just keep doing what we're doing. Yeah.
Ingrid: Yeah. And I do like it is incredibly exciting. And I do think we'll be here next year and the year after, because representation matters. Because having moments in safe conversations where other men and women can see women leaders, how would they think, how they got there, how they adapted, how they lead. It's how powerful. It's all incredibly powerful.
Ingrid: And, I think we have to keep making ourselves available, to have the story and to tell the story. And I think, you know, today's conversation is really reinforce the theme of accelerate action and how well we're doing. So for our listeners, thank you so much for joining us. I hope that you have found the conversation inspiring, and I hope you'll take it away and think about how might you help accelerate action.
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